morning. welcome, everybody. our "starting point" this morning, a high stakes debate with both sides on the attack. >> with all due respect that's a bunch of malarkey. >> i think the vice president very well knows that sometimes the words don't come out of your mouth the right way. mr. vice president i know you're under a lot of duress to make up for lost ground. lower tax rates increase growth. >> now you're jack kennedy? >> the interruptions, the facial expressions, and the facts. we're going to have the high lights, the low lights, the arguments and a fact check as well on the candidates' claims. it's friday october 12th. "starting point" comes to you live from danville, kentucky. good morning, welcome everybody. you're watching "starting

point." we're coming to you live this morning from center college here in danville, kentucky. things last night right here were pretty heated between the vice presidential candidates, no one had a bad night. nobody was too polite. instead joe biden, paul ryan, simply let it fly and when it was over the american people scored it a draw. cnn/orc poll of debate watchers showed that 48% felt that paul ryan won. 44% said that the vice president joe biden won. of course that would be a statistical tie when you calculate in the margin of error. we begin with cnn's dana bash with some of the highlights of the night. good morning. >> good morning. we were here. we watched it all. you really could feel the intensity of it from the beginning. all 90 minutes. it was very intense. there were some smiles and smirks on both sides. but all in all it was very substantive. these were two men who both came ready to tangle. >> world -- >> thank heavens -- >> reporter: on taxes. >> you can cut tax rates by 20%

and still preserve this important preferences for middle class taxpayers. >> not mathematically possible. >> it is mathematically possible. >> on medicare. >> they just allo medicare to bargain for the cost of drugs like medicaid can, that would save $156 billion right off the bat. >> and it would deny seniors choices. >> all -- >> reporter: on the president's foreign policy. >> when we look weak our adversaries are much more willing to test us, they're more brazen in their attacks and our allies are less willing -- >> with all due respect that's a bunch of malarkey. >> reporter: the vice president appeared determined to make up for president obama's mistakes last week. almost immediately launching the attack lines obama never used in his debate. >> it shouldn't be surprising for a guy who says 47% of the american people are unwilling to take responsibility for their own lives. my neighbors, they pay more effective tax than governor romney pays in his fed cal income tax. >> reporter: before the debate, cnn was told paul ryan's team anticipated biden being aggressive where the president was not. especially on mitt romney's

infamous 47% remark. >> mr. romney's a good man. >> reporter: ryan was ready with a well-practiced retort. >> with respect to that quote, i think the vice president very well knows that sometimes the words don't come out of your mouth the right way. >> i always say what i mean. >> biden's recovery plan for a demoralized democratic base was not just in what he said but what he did. >> in spate of their opposition -- >> oh, gosh. >> the president was criticized for not interrupting. biden jumped in constantly. >> as a result of this -- >> it's not -- >> what we're saying. >> but -- >> mr. vice president. >> the president was slammed for nodding as romney spoke. >> biden used the split screen to give a running commentary of disapproval. with his facial expressions. ryan had a zinger ready for all that, too. >> i know you're under a lot of duress to make up for lost ground. but i think it will be better

served if we don't keep interrupting each other. >> for 3409 minutes voters saw two dramatically different visions on the economy. >> the last people who need help are 120,000 families for another, another 500 billion dollar tax cut over the next ten years. >> our entire premise of these tax reform plans is to grow the economy, and create jobs. >> to national security threats like a nuclear iran. >> and if they get nuclear weapons, other people in the neighborhood will pursue their nuclear weapons, as well. >> war should always be the absolute last resort. >> reporter: for the most part it was a substantive debate between two longtime lawmakers who tried to disagree without being too disagreeable. >> when my friend talks about -- >> reporter: biden avoided any trade mark gaffes but did provide a little levity. >> this is a bunch of stuff. look, here's the deal -- >> what does that mean a bunch of stuff? >> well it means it's simply inaccurate. >> it's irish. >> we irish call it malarkey. >> okay.

so much to talk about out of this debate. martha raddat zpchlt, i thought she was terrific. >> absolutely. if there was a winner, she was commanding. fee followed up when she needed to. she pressed them on specifics. >> she also l them go a little bit and had some arguing. >> perfect. >> you know, if you went on twitter, as i did, after and said that i thought it was a draw, people on both sides completely hammered me because there was a sense joe biden's people thought joe biden won. paul ryan's people thought paul ryan definitively won. when end of the day they're appealing to the middle. >> there's so few undecideds at this point that that is a big reason, we're told, why joe biden did what he did. because the democratic base was really deflated, demoralized, after the president didn't deliver from their perspective. that's why he was frankly in many ways over the top. in some ways that's who he is. it's why he did what he did. if you talk about what happened in the spin room afterwards, that was the big debate.

was he disrespectful for joe being joe? >> you won't be surprised to hear that both sides went into full spin mode in that spin room, that conversation happened. you can listen to both people immediately afterwards talk about how their candidate won the debate. everything was under the microscope, including ryan's level of experience, and joe biden's interruptions, and his facial expressions, as dana just said. here's a little listen. >> i think congressman ryan was out of his depth, and showed clearly that the ticket is not ready for prime-time on foreign policy. i think that was a decisive difference between the two sides. >> i thought it was a great nice for us. i was excited for paul. he was solid. he had a command of the issues. quite frankly i was embarrassed for the vice president. i mean the laughs. we counted 82 times that joe biden interrupted paul ryan. >> if the only criticism comes from the right and from some folks out there is that he smiled too much, i'll take that any day. my father was enjoying the opportunity to debate congressman ryan on a very

important issues. >> not exactly a surprise that there was spin from the spin room. we want to get right to democratic congressman chris von hollen of maryland. he played paul ryan in the vice president's debate prep. you were the guy who was responsible to push the vice president. when you watched it actually unfold in real life, how do you think it went? >> i thought the vice president did a great job. look, joe biden is a fighter for the middle class. he's passionate about these issues. that came through. and he also marshaled the facts tohow that the romney/ryan plan would be really bad for the middle class. so i think all in all he was a great debate for the american people, and the choice is clear today. >> i think they did a good job in sort of delineating their two very different positions and both campaigns have said this is going to be about two very different pathways. lots of criticism, though, from the -- for people who watch joe biden, said that they thought his facial expressions, the eye rolling, the laughing, some thought it was disrespectful. >> well, i would disagree.

i think joe biden is passionate about the middle class issues. and you can feel his emotion. he speaks from the heart. and there were times that paul ryan said things that, as the vice president said, were just malarkey. normal people react to those kind of things. so, look, i know some republicans want to focus on style but what was important was the substance. what the vice president did was show that the romney/ryan tax plan at the end of the day will not help the middle class. it will help the very wealthy. he made it clear that their voucher plan for medicare will pass additional costs on to seniors, and again hurt seniors who have a median income of $23,000. i thought he did a really good job clarifying the choice. >> you know, "the washington post" said, it felt to us like he, talking about joe biden, went a little bit overboard and at times bordered on bullying riden. smiles and laughs while rying tried to answer questions weren't great optics for the vice president and his repeated intersupgss won't make those who think politics should be more

civil happy. if it's not just about energizing your base. certainly people were like my guy won on both sides but it's about this sort of undecided middle isn't there a risk in being what i think some people thought was you know disrespectful. or at least -- >> i think that the vice president, his passion came through. he cares about these issues. as for undecided voters, the cnn poll was of all viewers, but cbs did a poll specifically of undecided voters who were watching the debate, and joe biden won overwhelmingly, 53% to 35% something in that range. those are the voters that people are looking for right now. they clearly said joe biden was the winner. >> one of our polls cnn/orc poll, they said who was more likable. and it was paul ryan who won by a decent margin. almost 10% margin there. also, who performed better at the debate? that looked like a tie from our perspective. >> that was a poll of all the

viewers. it was as you indicated earlier slighted weighted towards republicans. >> this was debate watchers. >> right. but the cbs poll was debate watchers who were undecided going in. and they gave the clear victory. >> let's talk a little bit about paul ryan on tax cuts. i want to play a little bit from the debate. >> sure. there aren't enough rich people in small businesses to tax to pay for all their spending. so the next time you hear them say don't worry about it, we'll get a few wealthy people to pay their fair share, watch out middle class, the tax bill is coming to you. >> what i thought was interesting and more intesting about this particular debate was that the candidates were able to kind of go at open other and some of that was a different format in the debate. didn't paul ryan have a point, both of them are calling each other on sort of the facts of what they have been claiming when it comes to numbers and math. >> well, except for one thing. the vice president has never claimed that you can reduce our deficit through tax increases alone. he's never said that. the president and vice president

have said we need to take the ballad propose, using the kind of frachlwork that bipartisan groups have suggested. whereas republicans have been very clear not one more penny, even from people like mitt romney to reduce the deficit. so our point isn't that you can increase taxes on wealthier people, and do the whole thing on the deficit. our point of review is that they should be asked to contribute a little more. go back to paying what they were in the clinton administration, when the economy was roaring. that's what we're saying. we support a combination of additional targeted cuts. but also revenue for folks who are doing very well to help reduce the deficit. because if you don't have one penny more from very wealthy people it means you sock it to everybody else. seniors on medicare pay more. less investment in our kids' education. and that's exactly the romney/ryan budget does. itzhaks it to the middle class and seniors, in order to give these tax breaks to very wealthy people. >> what do you think of the job martha raddatz did? >> i think she did a very good job.

never made herself the center of the debate. >> she started off very strong with benghazi. want to play a little bit about what the vice president said about security in benghazi. >> well, we weren't told we want more security. we did not know they wanted more security. >> explain that to me. a lot of the testimony was, in fact, the, the, the government did know. that, that, that the state department was well aware that there were requests for security. doesn't that completely contradict exactly what we just saw in i think it was wednesday's testimony? >> what the vice president is saying is that he and the president didn't know. this information had been communicated, at least according to the hearings, to the diplomatic security folks at the state department, and some others. but it wasn't communicated to the president. what the vice president said here was number one we're going to get all the facts. let's not jump to conclusions. let's not shoot from the lip as mitt romney did by making a statement right after some of the chaos broke out. it was sort of universally agreed was that the wrong thing to do.

and we're going to make sure we hunt down and find the killers just like they did osama bin laden. so i think the vice president was very strong and clear on that. >> congressman chris von hollen. thank you for talking with us. during the debate we got a snapshot of what people were googling. the top searches were biden, conflating, malarkey, a lot trying to figure out what malarkey meant, and who is winning the debate. breaking down the top google searches related to biden, ryan debate came in number one. then how old is. then laughing, and then jill. breaking down the top searches related to ryan, biden debate was number one, then how old is. then shirtless, then workout. coming up we're going to talk with republican senator ron johnson. first we want to get right back to new york and top stories making news today outside of last night's debate. good morning to you, skron. >> good morning, soledad. first up, rallying. more demonstrations in smoert of 14-year-old anti-taliban activist malala.

the taliban targeted her because she's been a fierce critic of theirs. she's a staunch advocate for education and girls and women's rights. about 100 people were detained, accused of colluding with attackers who tried to assassinate her. most of them have been released. she's in critical condition. a veteran diplomat coming out of retirement to serve as the senior u.s. envoy in libya. laurence pope is tapped for the diplomatic post a month after the death of u.s. ambassador christopher stevens in the benghazi consulate attack. pope retired from the foreign service twelve years ago. the 2012 nobel peace prize awarded just a couple of hours ago. it didn't go to a person. but the european union. takes the prize. the eu was formed out of the rubble of world war ii and for more than six dpek aids it has promoted democracy and reconciliation across europe. the nobel committee noted that the eu is now battling one of the worst economic crises ever. mission 26 is the shortest and slowest mission ever for the space shuttle "endeavour."

the retired spacecraft began the journey overnight from l.a.x. to its retirement home at the california science center. big crowds are expected as "endeavour" snakes its way through the straights of los angeles at a whopping 2 miles per hour. the 12-mile trip will make 46 hours, and it ends tomorrow night. the detroit tigers and san francisco giants are a step closer to the world series. the tigers shut out the oakland aest to advance to the championship series. the giants posed out the reds to reach the nlcs after losing their first two games at home. they had to win three on the road which is pretty darn impressive. their opponents will be decided tonight. the baltimore orioles, beat the yankees 2-1 in 13 innings in the bronx to force a game five in their series. everyone is rooting for the orioles. the washington nationals scored a walk-off win against the st. louis cardinals. that sets the stage for a game five in that series. i was in washington when jason worth hit that home run.

washington went bonkers. i swear you could hear the screams on the streets anywhere. very exciting. game five there as well. soledad? >> and how did your red sox do last night? oh, wait a minute. >> they didn't lose. they were undefeated yesterday. unlike the yankees who were 0-1 yesterday. take that malarkey. >> the spin. yeah, you're right. malarkey. i call malarkey on you. all right, john, thank you. still ahead on "starting point," both vice presidential candidates asked if they can get unemployment under 6%. they both said they could do it. is it a promise or is it just hot air? we're going to dig into the jobs issue and some of those numbers up next. and then of course remember he went to prison for illegal dog fights. michael vick is up to something you may not believe. >> vice is big today "time" magazine published a punch of pictures of paul ryan working out. have you guys seen these? take a look at this one here. yeah! tin can romney right there.

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welcome back to "starting point." this just in to cnn, jpmorgan chase reporting record third quarter profits this morning. ceo jamie dimon says the housing market, housing has turned the corner. so clearly the economy still the central issue of the 2012 campaign as well. both paul ryan and vice president biden attacking each other's records on job creation last night. >> look at where we are. the economy is barely limping along. it's growing at 1.3%. that's slower than it grew last year and last year was slower

than the year before. >> they talk about ts great recession as if it fell out of the sky like oh, my goodness. where did it come from? it came from this man voting to put two wars on a credit card, at the same time put a prescription drug benefit on the credit card. a trillion dollar tax cut for very wealthy. i was there. >> the two men pitched plans to speed up job growth over the next four years, but as they say the devil is in the details. mark zandi joins us now, chief economist with moody's analytics. his new book is called "paying the price, ending the great recession and beginning a new american century." mark let's start with jpmorgan ceo jamie dimon saying that the housing has turned a corner. we have seen housing prices start to move up. we've seen foreclosures at a five-year low. the unemployment rate at 7. pfrs. we have jobless claims at a four-year low. is joe biden's recovery finally here 28 months later? >> yeah, it's happening. the economic recovery is in place. it's been in place for 3 1/2

years, and i think we're making progress. obviously we're not going anywhere fast. the economy is not improving fast enough to bring down that unemployment rate. but we are improving, and the best news, most recently is the housing market. the housing market has turned the corner and of course housing was ground zero for our problems. the fact that it's turning up is very positive news. >> let's talk about from what he heard last night. who has the plan to get the unemployment rate back to 6% or below? >> the thing is i think regardless of who wins the election we're going to get there. the unemployment rate peaked at 10% just about three years ago. we're now at 7.8. i think it's very doable to get to 6% by the end of 9 next president's term. whoever wins, though, has to address a number of fiscal issues earlier in their term. that's the fiscal cliff. the tax increases and spending cuts that are coming at the start of next year. the treasury debt ceiling has to be increased again. summer before last, that was very painful.

and either president has to lay out a credible path to deficit reduction to stabilize their debt load. if they can do that. and i think either president can, then our economy is going to, i think, get its groove back and i think we should be below 6% by the end of -- >> that's nice to hear. you say either president can. that's going to require leadership with a congress that so far has not been amenable to, you know, making tough decisions at any time past the last minute or even punting on them. yesterday alan simpson on cnbc had these choice words, shall we say, about the congress that this president and the next president will have to deal with. listen. >> they really believe honestly that no congress could be this stupid. and by god they can. >> he's talking about people who think that they're going to be able to fix the fiscal cliff at the last minute because congress will go along. that's kind of a very expressive thought. >> well, yeah, and that's why businesses are so anxious, and not out hiring and investing right now.

because they haved same sentiment about congress. the thing is, interesting thing is both sides, democrats, republicans, have leverage. tax rates are going up on everyone unless there's a piece of legislation that gives leverage to the democrats. we have sequestration. defending cuts, half defense, half nondefense. republicans don't like the defense cuts. democrats don't like the nondefense cuts. and we have the freshry debt ceiling. whichever party doesn't win the election is going to use that to help support their side. you know what? it's odd, but i think the political stars are actually aligned that we are going to get a deal. at least a reasonably good deal, solve these issues. and if we do, the good things that are happening in our underlying economy, what jpmorgan is talking about in the banking system, american businesses, all those things will start to shine through. >> maybe congress won't be as stupid as alan simpson thinks it will be. i want to switch to taxes and this claim by the romney/ryan

team campaign that they would cut tax rates by 20%, across the board, still maintaining tax, you know, tax breaks that are there for the middle class. they wouldn't get rid of middle-class deductions. but also they wouldn't be rolling back any kind of investment taxes either. i want you to listen to what paul ryan said last night. >> we want to work with the congress and help us to achieve this. that means successful. >> with no specifics. >> what we're saying is lower tax rates 20%, start with the wealthy, work with congress -- >> can you guarantee this math will add up? >> absolutely. six studies have guaranteed. six studies have verified that this math adds up. >> so to you does this math add up? can you preserve the deductions for the middle class, cut tax rates, not add to the deficit, and cut tax rates across the board by 20%? i mean the tax policy center says knowing what we know about their plan, it's not possible. >> yeah, i think the tax policy center study is the definitive study. they're nonpartisan, they're very good. they say given the numbers that

they've been provided by the romney campaign, no, it will not add up. now, romney campaign could adjust their plan. they could say okay i'm not going to lower tax rates as much as i'm saying right now and they could make the arithmetic work. but under the current plan, the current numbers, no it doesn't. also one other thing, though. i think it is important that we do focus on the so-called tax expenditures in the tax code. deductions and loopholes in the code. we need to reduce those, because if we do we're going to make the tax system fairer, easier to understand and ultimately lead to stronger growth. that's the right place to focus. the arithmetic doesn't work as it is right now. >> mark zandi, thanks so much. >> thank you. >> "starting point" back in a moment. oadway show megapixels place to sleep little roadster war and peace deep sea diving ninja app hipster glasses 5% cash back sign up to get 5% everywhere online through december. only from discover.

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welcome back to "starting point." a few stories to tell you about. u.s. officials say agents along the u.s./mexican border were assaulted with rocks after they observed suspects dropping drugs into arizona. an agent open eed fire and apparently struck one of the suspects. mexico claims that teenager was killed. a minnesota woman who says she was infected with a potentially steroid injection is fewing necc. the nationwide death toll has claimed to 14 in this outbreak. 170 people are injected. the cdc says 14,000 people may have received tainted injections. now, the debate and the baseball playoffs maybe you forgot there was football last night. i sure missed it. the tennessee titans kicked a field goal late to beat the pittsburgh steelers. here it is. through the uprights. they win, 26-23.

soledad? >> good shot. all right, john, thank you. after flying 25 missions in space, the shutle "endeavour" is taking a go-slow approach for mission number 26. a trip to its retirement home at the california science center. you're looking at live pictures there. "endeavour" is going to enjoy one long victory lap through the streets of l.a. for today and into tomorrow. john zarrella is live for us in los angeles this morning. god that is such a great shot. i think it's a nice thing that they're going to take it slow. good morning. >> yeah, well they don't have a choice but to take it slow through the streets. can you imagine, 25 flights, flying 17,500 miles an hour, repairing satellites, fixing the hubble space telescope, flying to the space station, and this may be the most memorable journey that any space shuttle has ever made. it left los angeles international airport a couple of hours ago. passed right by our location there. being towed on a transporter and

making the narrow turns through the streets of los angeles. we expect it to be here momentarily in the area behind me here is another staging area where the space shuttle undeafer is going to sit for about seven, eight, nine hours where they reconfigure it onto another platform. tonight, later tonight they're going to hook it up to a toyota truck to tow it across the 405 expressway. we talked to the toyota people and they said that's because they have a 20-year history with the science museum, and we asked them if they were going to make a commercial out of this? they said well maybe. you think, soledad, they're going to make a commercial out of these? you bet they will. >> hmm. hmm. let me think about that for a minute. john zarrella for us this morning. thank you, appreciate it. >> sure. still ahead on "starting point," we gave you some democratic reaction to last night's debate. up next we're going to hear the republican side. senator ron johnson wille my guest. also michael vick's dog days may not be over. we'll tell you what he's saying now.

i'm barack obama, and i approve this msage.

'm not in favor of a $5 trillion tax cut. that's not my plan." mitchell: "the nonpartisan tax policy center concluded that mitt romney's tax plan would cost $4.8 trillion over 10 years." vo: why won't romney level with us about his tax plan, which gives the wealthy huge new tax breaks? because according to experts, he'd have to raise taxes on the middle class - or increase the deficit to pay for it. if we can't trust him here... how could we ever trust him here? ♪ ♪ [ male announcer ] you've been years in the making. and there are many years ahead. join the millions of members who've chosen an aarp medicare supplement insurance plan insured by unitedhealthcare insurance company. go long.

welcome back, everybody. you're watching "starting point." we're coming to you from center college in danville, kentucky. that, of course, the site of last night's vice presidential debate. the debate had all the fireworks that were missing from the presidential debate. vice president joe biden republican challenger paul ryan literally duking it out. maybe not literally. but verbally duking it out and getting testy between them early and pretty often, too. >> allies are less willing -- >> with all due respect that's a bunch of malarkey. >> why is that so? >> because not a single thing he said is accurate. this is a bunch of stuff. look, here's the deal -- >> what does that mean a bunch of stuff. >> it means it's simply inaccurate. it's irish. >> we irish call it malarkey. >> i think the vice president very well knows that sometimes the words don't come out of your mouth the right way.

>> i always say what i mean. >> more people signed up for medicare advantage after the change. >> what they're saying -- >> nobody is -- >> mr. vice president i sew -- i know you're under a lot of duress to make up for lost ground. but i think people will be better served if we don't keept interrupting each other. >> well don't take all the four minutes then. >> it has never been done before. >> it's been done a couple of times. >> it's never been done. now you're jack kennedy. >> let's bring in republican senator ron johnson who is from wisconsin, just like paul ryan. nice to see you. you were watching in the surrogate room. >> right. >> what was it like back there? were you yelling at the tv? >> people were a little frustrated with joe biden's rudeness, quite honestly. come on, let paul answer the question. >> republican people. >> exactly. well i think vice president biden was under an awful lot of pressure to make up for really

president obama's very poor performance, so -- >> and -- his failed performance. my guess is he was appealing to the base. you know, the occupy wall street crowd, and maybe that resonated with them. i don't think that really resonated particularly well with women. >> when you look at the cnn polls it shows it was pretty much a draw, paul ryan 48%. joe biden 44%. but of course the sampling error is plus or minus 5% which would make it right down the middle there. and then if you look at favorability, same cnn poll shows that you really didn't move the, the needle on that when it came to people who are watching the debate. so is your analysis that it was a victory for paul ryan without i guess totally partisan do you think it really was a draw? >> i think paul did very well. he was measured. he was dignified. he was calm. he was cool, collected. basically coming under assault by vice president biden. >> assault? >> it was. i mean, because he does not have a record that's defendable he

just raised his voice, kept continuing to interrupt. it's very difficult to get your points out when you're being interrupted all the time. what was the count? 80 to 100 times. the unofficial count. that's very difficult to actually make debate points when you are -- when your opponent is being so rude. >> martha raddatz at one point, i thought she started off very strong, getting right into benghazi, in the middle she started pressing paul ryan about specifics for that 20% across-the-board tax cut. i want to play a little bit about how that went. >> what we're saying is, deny those loopholes and deductions to higher income taxpayers, so that more of their income is taxed, which has a broader base of taxation -- >> may i translate? >> so we can lower tax rates across the board. here's why i'm saying this. >> hopefully i'm going to get time to respond. >> you'll get time. >> we want to work with the congress to help us to achieve this. that means successful. >> with no specifics. >> what we're saying is lower tax rates 20%, start with the wealthy, work with congress to

do it. -- >> you guarantee this math will add up? >> absolutely. >> so, we keep guaranteeing this math is going to add up but never actually giving specifics and sort of saying well we're going to open it up to congress but not actually giving specifics. i tilely thought this was one of the weaker points for congressman ryan. >> no i understand the tax plan and what they're guaranteeing is the principles of the type of tax reform they're doing. it's pro-growth tax reform. so you lower the marginal rates for everybody. the way you make sure that the people in the higher income brackets don't have a tax benefit is you broaden their base. you take away or limit their deductions so that you make sure it's revenue neutral. and you do that as a principle so as congress is crafting that, you have to negotiate things to do that. >> jane doe taxpayer. i'm like what deductions will you kill? i want to know. just name three or what deductions are not off the table? what do i not have to worry about? >> for individuals what governor romney and paul ryan are saying none of them are off the table. you start limiting those

deductions proportion to the rate you lower their morning nal tax rate. marginal tax rates create the incentive -- >> child care credit could be cut. so my mortgage deduction could be cut? because that actually is a problem, no details. >> a child care credit in upper income individuals generally don't qualify. you're talking about limiting deduxzs for those in the upper income level so that their tax burden remains neutral. so that they don't benefit. that's the principle. you don't renegotiate going into -- >> but as you know, but people go all the time, this is my plan. here's what i want. i believe it you go with a principle but you also go with very specific strategy. >> they have pretty specific parts of their plan where -- >> pretty kind of but not really? >> listen, when you're specifically saying you want to -- your goal is to lower marginal tax rates 20% across the board, and for lower income and middle income individuals you're going to eliminate all taxes on income on investment income, you're going to make sure that you, you know,

eliminate the death tax, the amt, those are very specifics and then you give congress the broad principle for people making $200,000 or above, those households, make sure that as you craft the compromise, that, that part of the tax reform remains neutral. >> analysis, as you know, says it does not, the math does not add up. >> no, that is one, honestly, very partisan analysis. six other analyses have said that it is entirely possible. and the point that paul's trying to make is in the past. when you've actually lowered marginal tax rates. it's produced more revenue. ronald reagan, six years during his tax reform we went from $600 billion to $1 trillion worth of revenue. that's a 67% increase. even george bush's tax cuts, in 2003, federal revenue was a little under $1.8 trillion. before the housing vote, $2.5 trillion. that's a 42% increase in revenue to the federal government. lowering marginal tax rates is incentivizing. >> i hear you on that. what people are taking exception

to is without details, as a taxpayer, of what's on the table and what's off the table, it's a very easy way to throw out numbers without necessarily being having to be responsible for the math working out. i mean i thought martha raddatz did a very good job on this. she's sort of like you're not again going to give specifics. and chris wallace -- >> you are giving specifics as you're giving directions to congress. this is what ceos do. listen, as you design this, make sure that people making $200,000 will not have their tax burden lowered. but we're going to lower their marginal tax rate because that produces inseverives for them to create jobs. for people making less than $200,000, lower their tax rates that will be so pro-growth it will be made up in terms of economic growth. that's how you increase revenue to the federal government. the old-fashioned way. by growing your economy. that is what this president does not understand. he doesn't understand how the private sector works. so his -- his choice, and this is why this i such a stark contrast in this election,

president obama had a choice to make when he came into this -- into the presidency. by the way, the recession had bottomed out. we weren't in free-fall. in the second quarter, we only gave up 0.7 gdp growth by the third quarter of his presidency we were already in recovery. it's his policies that have made that recovery so anemic because his choice was, i'm going to grow government, which has increased the debt burden on our grandchildren by 5.4 trillion dollars, scared consumers, scared investors, mitt romney, paul ryan, conservatives understand what we need is pro-greth tax reform, insent vice small businesses, medium size businesses to invest, expand their business, create jobs. that's the balanced approach. grow revenue the old-fashioned way by growing the economy. >> democrats would disagree with every single thing you said. >> they're wrong. and president obama has been proven wrong. look at the anemic results of his recovery. >> and we are out of time. as you know, they would say consistent slow and anemic but

consistent recovery. we've got to stop. >> give me more time next time. >> it's a deal. any time you would love to come back on. we've got to get to some of the other stories making news. >> thanks, soledad. great discussion there. in colorado there is still no sign of 10-year-old jessica ridgeway. she vanished one week ago today. police are searching nearby fields, lakes and open spaces for clues. jessica's backpack was found last weekend not far from her home and a body was found in the area on wednesday but police have not identified it yet. that could happen today. this is a disturbing story. a teenager who pulled out a handgun and shot himself in the head in front of his class is in the hospital recovering this morning. officials in the rural community of fairmont, north dakota, say they have no idea why the freshman did this. he apologized before pulling the trigger and said he had no intention of hurting anyone else. his name has not been released. another hearing to try to force accused fort hood shooter

madeal hasan to shave his beard. his court-martial remains on hold indefinitely. seven appellate judges listened to oral arguments for more than an hour yesterday. hasan, who is a practicing muslim says his religion requires him to have a beard. philadelphia eagles quarterback michael vick comes clean. he says he is now a dog owner. vick, you will recall, served 18 months in prison on dogfighting charges. he just issued a statement saying the dog is quote, well cared for, and that he wants his children to develop a healthy relationship with animals. i think that did surprise a lot of people this morning. >> yeah. i think it does. certainly. all right, john, thank you. still ahead this morning on "starting point," he says his father was in command last night. we're going to talk to beau biden about the troops, and what he thought surprised him coming from paul ryan last night. you're watching "starting point." when you have diabetes...

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welcome back, everybody. you're watching "starting point" live from danville, kentucky. we've been listening to the highlights from the debate all morning, the jabs, accusations, the policy. there was a moment when vice president biden talked about a family tragedy and what that meant for helping other people in his situation. listen. >> i understand what it's like. when i was a little younger than the congressman, my wife was in an accident. killed my daughter and my wife. and my two sons survived. i have sat in the homes of many people that have gone through what i've been through. one thing you can give people

solace is to know if they know you've been through it, that they can make it. >> beau biden is the governor of delaware. i know you helped him prep for this. >> i thought he had a command of that stage. it's important to talk to the american people about the facts. he went into great depth about the facts and painting the stark contrast of the tickets. >> that may be the only thing that they agree, a big difference between the two tickets was sort of underscored. senator johnson said he thought your father was disrespectful, that he interrupted many, many times. >> yeah. look, my dad enjoyed being up there. he was respectful to the congressman. people are criticizing him for smiling too much. you know, look, any time that the right is going after you on style points, you know you've

won the argument. it's like the reality for me, when i watch that debate, it was hard not to laugh when, you know, congressman ryan attacked my father and the president for the recovery act. but here, congressman ryan sent two letters to my father and to the administration asking for recovery act dollars for the state of wisconsin. it was just done a moment ago. it's not a credible argument. so my dad was up there and he was respectful. he was in command of the stage. any time you are being attacked for style points you know you've landed punch after punch after punch after punch. i think that's why in the spin room the only thing republicans talked about was my dad smiling too much. i'll take that criticism any day. >> when we look at the cnn poll, it was pretty much a wash. it was equal, i think. ryan, 48%. biden, 44%. margin of error it made it roughly aa draw. did you feel like the big picture is it was a draw for you? >> in terms of the pundit class and american people, my father

laid out a very clear vision about how they're going to continue to grow the middle class and move them forward. >> you know that was not the consensus? >> there was. >> from pundits all across the board. stuff i've heard this early hour is that biden was in command of that stage. there's a cbs poll of, i think, voters where he has won 50-30. i don't put a lot of stock in the polls but there's an audience out there that we were talking to, the democratic base, number one, and independent voters and there's a great -- polls aren't worth much in the last 25 days, having biden winning 50-30. this isn't about polls miechlt dad took the opportunity to speak directly to the american people and spoke about paul ryan's plan to voucheri medicare. what i was struck by as a veteran is paul ryan last night suggested, left the door wide open for, if not suggested putting additional troops in

afghanistan. and, you know, this is after he spent the first half of his answer saying he didn't have any difference with the time line that my father and the president set for getting out of afghanistan. then he went on about how we should have additional troops in afghanistan, the most dangerous part of the most dangerous country in the world. i thought that was the most remarkable moment and i thought it highlighted -- paul ryan's a nice guy, about my age, a little younger. he said his only foreign policy experience is voting to send soldiers to war. you saw on the stage last night someone who didn't have that kind of command of the facts, like my father. foreign policy adviser, a good guy, literally spinning in the room last night, trying to come back from that statement that governor -- congressman ryan suggesting we put additional troops in afghanistan. >> beau biden, nice to have you with us this morning. appreciate your time and position on that. we've got to take a break. we'll be back in a moment.

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welcome back. coming up in our next hour of "starting point" we'll be chatting with bill burton. we'll give you his take on the v.p. debate as president obama is preparing for his next debate. that will happen on tuesday. moving at a snail's pace. the space shuttle "endeavour" is slowly headed to its final home. live to los angeles to see what's happening there. you're watching "starting point." we're back in just a moment. leys are made with real ingredients you can see. like whole roasted nuts, chewy granola, and real fruit. nature valley trail mix bars. 100% natural. 100% delicious.

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welcome, everybody. our "starting point" this morning, a fireworks-filled vice presidential debate, complete with lots of zingers. listen. >> this shouldn't be surprising for a guy who says 47% of the american people are unwilling to take responsibility for their lives. >> i know you're under a lot of duress to make -- but i think it would be better served if we don't keep interrupting each other. >> got highlights, some low lights and controversy over what some people says was joe biden's

facial expressions. also don't forget the facts. did the numbers add up when it comes to jobs, taxes, unemployment? it's friday, october 12th. and starting point comes to you live from danville, kentucky. welcome, everybody. you're watching us live from center college in danville, kentucky. less than 12 hours ago, it was paul ryan versus joe biden, squaring off in what was a pretty bruising debate. truly something his boss, the president, failed to do last week. paul ryan firing back as well. voters scored it a draw. 48% giving the nod to paul ryan as the winner, 44% saying it was joe biden that won. because of the margin of error that works out to a statistical tie. dana bash joins us with the highlights of last night. i would agree with those

pollers. i thought it was a statistical tie as well. >> that's right. i think maybe you'll agree with me that you can still feel the heat rising from the stage because it was so intense, so many sparks between the two of them when it came to joe biden, maybe a laugh or too many grins. when it came to paul ryan a smirk, but there was a lot of substance. these were two men who both came ready to tangle. >> what world these guys are in. >> reporter: on taxes. >> you can cut tax rates by 20% and still preserve these important preferences for middle taxpayers. >> not mathematically possible. >> it is mathematically possible. >> reporter: on medicare. >> if they allow medicare to bargain for the cost of drugs like medicaid can, that would save $156 billion right off the bat. >> and would deny seniors choices. >> reporter: on the president's foreign policy. >> when we look weak our adversaries are much more willing to test us, more brazen

in their attacks and our allies are less likely -- >> with all due respect, that's a bunch of mularkey. >> reporter: the vice president seemed to make up for the president's mistakes last week, almost immediately launching the attack lines obama never used. >> for a guy who says 47% of the american people are unwilling to take responsibility for their lives. my neighbors pay more effective tax than governor romney pays in his federal income tax. >> reporter: paul ryan's team anticipated biden being aggressive where the president was not, especially on mitt romney's infamous 47% remark. >> romney is a good man. >> reporter: ryan was ready with a well practiced retort. >> with respect to that quote, i think the vice president very well knows that sometimes the words don't come out of your mouth the right way. >> but i always say what i mean. and so does romney. >> reporter: demoralized base

was not just in what he said but what he did. the president was criticized for not interrupting. biden jumped in constantly. >> as a result of this -- >> that's not what they said. >> mr. vice president -- >> the president was slammed for nodding as romney spoke. the split screen was used to give a running commentary of disapproval with his facial expressions. ryan had a zinger ready for all that, too. >> i know you're under a lot of duress to make up lost ground but i think people would be better served if we didn't interrupt each other. >> reporter: voters saw two dramatically different visions, from the economy -- >> the last people who need help is 120,000 families for another $500 billion tax cut over the next ten years. >> our entire premise of these tax reform plans is to grow the economy and create jobs. if they get nuclear weapons,

other people in the neighborhood will pursue their nuclear weapon s as well. >> war should always be absolutely the last resort. >> reporter: a substantive debate between two long-time lawmakers who tried to disagree without being too disagreeable. >> when my friend talks about -- >> reporter: biden avoided any trademark gaffes, but did provide a little levity. >> this is a bunch of stuff. >> what does that mean, a bunch of stuff? >> simply inaccurate it's irish. >> it is. >> thanks for the translation. >> this morning there is a lot of stuff being said about joe biden, democrats really coming to his defense saying he did exactly what he needed to do, energize the base, republicans saying he was rude, interrupted too much and over the top. four days until this is history and the next presidential debate. >> exactly, which this is aall building up to. there's a lot of stuff going on behind us. that is literally the podium or desk from last night and they're starting to rip out the lights

and all the stuff that made that set for last night. it's getting loud and will get louder as we go. bill burton is live in d.c. for us this morning with priorities u.s.a. action, a superpac that supports president obama. also a former white house press secretary for the administration. hammering behind me, i apologize in case it drowns me out as we're talking. twitter was on fire where people would think absolutely, positively it was paul ryan who won or absolutely, positively it was joe biden who won. ultimately, though, this was about playing to the middle. when it comes to that realist realistically, who do you think had the advantage there? >> i think if you look at the polls, your poll said that that debate was tied. cbs said that vice president biden did remarkably better than congressman ryan did. but i think if you just look at the two -- if you look at the vice president, the vice presidential nominee on the republican side, the facts don't stack up for the republican

side. and i think that joe biden did an excellent job of point iing t where the math didn't add up, where his inexperience on foreign policy showed ryan to be unprepared and a little off kilter. and i think that joe biden, overall, did a much better job making the case for president obama than paul ryan did for mitt romney. >> but when you look at the cnn/orc poll that asks the question, who is in touch with the problems of people like you -- this is an area in which joe biden is considered to be very, very strong, right? he is the guy who talks to the middle class, did that a lot last night in the debate. it was actually paul ryan who was ahead. the polling there was 51% for paul ryan, 44% for joe biden. doesn't that make it impossible to read that as a victory for the democrats in an area that joe biden is supposed to be really strong in? >> i think these snap polls right after the debate aren't necessarily the best snapshot of how voters really feel about these debates.

and they take a look at it over the course of time and see whose facts added up and whose facts didn't add up. when you saw paul ryan really pressed on the math of their tax plan, it opened that argument all the over again. because he really just couldn't make the math work. and he couldn't explain it in a way that the american people could be comfortable with. now, he says that there's a way that -- they've got a secret plan to fix the tax rate so that everybody gets a tax cut and everybody gets to keep all the stuff they like. if the plan was so good, they wouldn't keep it a secret. it's not a secret because it's too good for the middle class. they're not telling you the details because the impact on the middle class is it would increase anxiety, increase pressure and make it even harder for middle class families and joe biden did an excellent job of pointing that out. >> i thought he did what people were expecting he would do when it came to the 47%. he mentioned it which was a big miss. i think many people felt from the president, who left out a big talking point in the weeks

leading up to the first presidential debate. here say little bit about what joe biden said about that 47%. listen. >> you probably detected my, uh, frustration with their attitude about the american people. my friend says that 30% of the american people are takers. romney points out 47% of the people won't take responsibility. he's talking about my mother and father. he's talking about the places i grew up, my neighbors in scranton and claymont. >> do you think that was leveraged enough to stop the momentum that we have seen, certainly, through the polling of the last week, for the romney campaign? >> i think that that debate gave democrats a lot to be very excited about, very enthusiastic about. i think it showed undecided voters a very clear contrast between how the president wants to keep growing this economy, keep unemployment going down and how mitt romney's policies would favor the wealthy over the middle class. yes i do think that this debate

was very helpful. overall will it be as meaningful as one of the presidential debates? it's hard to say right now. for last night and for this mome moment, i think that there's a lot for us on the democratic side to be very happy about. >> lot of aggressiveness out of joe biden and there are many people like ben smith and chris zalizza from the washington post, smiling was unsettling, laughing wag losing the debate from joe biden's side. some people have said -- i've heard this a couple of times, that some of this aggressiveness was a way to sort of navigate what the president should do in the next presidential debate. kind of push the envelope a little bit to see, you know, how far the president can go. do you think there's merit to that theory? what is the president doing right now in preparation? what does he leverage out of this debate? >> when the top talking point came out of the debate is joe biden smiling too much, i think that gives you the sense they

didn't feel like they won on substance. all the talk about how joe biden was reacting, when paul ryan made the comment that he would rather send more american troops into afghanistan rather than let the afghan troops fight that war themselves, i think a lot of americans were throwing things at their tv and not just throwing up their hands. i think people were pretty disturbed about a lot of things that paul ryan had to say. for joe biden to get in there and aggressively make his case with his a very natural thing to do. you know, i think if you listen to what president obama has said about that first debate, you know, he says that he didn't have a great night. and, you know, i'm sympathetic. i followed an interview that mitt romney did on this network. and, you know, when you listen to mitt romney completely remake all of his plans and what he said about the economy, what he said on things like choice, they can be pretty flummoxing. i think the president is a pretty competitive guy. i'm pretty confident that he's

going to do what he needs to do next tuesday. >> bill burton, senior strategist for priorities u.s.a. action pac. thank you for being with us. my apologies for the noise behind me. they're breaking down the stage and so it's getting kind of noisy in here. at the bottom of the hour we'll get reaction from the gop, talking with erick erickson. we'll air the debate at noon eastern. candy crowley will be moderating the next debate on tuesday. john berman is looking at the headlines. >> don't let them take your chair or anything as they're breaking down there. more demonstrations in support for 14-year-old activist malala youszezari.

100 people were detained, concluding with attackers who tried to assassinate this young girl. most of them have since been released. malala is in critical condition this morning. lawren laurence pope has been tapped for the position of ambassador to libya after the death of chris stevens. nobel peace prize, announcement in oslo this morning, honoring urptian union for advancing peace, democracy and reconciliation across europe since the end of world war ii. the committee also noted working to solve the economic crisis and the prize is a message of support. and slowly it goes. you are looking live at the space shuttle "endeavour."

through the streets. "endeavour" is on its way to becoming a massive museum piece at the science center. big crowds are getting up close to look at the shuttle as it moves along at a whopping 2 miles per hour. majestic. the baseball playoff, detroit tigers and san francisco giants are one step closer to the world series this morning. tigers shut out the oakland a's. justin verlander. giants closed out the cincinnati reds in five games to reach the nlcs. pretty amazing comeback. they were down two games to nothing. they now go to the nlcs. their opponents will be decided tonight after the baltimore orioles beat the yankees 2-1 in 14 innings. and washington nationals with a really stunning walk-off win against defending champ st. louis cardinals. jayson werth with the

game-winning home run right there set the stage for a game five in that series. winner there faces the giants. soledad? >> getting very interesting. john, thank you. still ahead on starting point, lots of facts and figure s were thrown out in the debate, talking about taxes and conversation about health care. we'll get back to john in a moment as he checks to see if those facts and figures add up. when you have diabetes...

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the board, remain deficit neutral, without eliminating deductions that benefit the middle class. listen. >> you can cut tax rates by 20% and still preserve these important preferences for middle class taxpayers. >> not mathematically possible. >> it is mathematically possible. >> they tell us and told us again last night given what we know about romney's plans it is not possible to cut rates as much as he would like without eliminating deductions that would affect the middle class. you just can't do this without changing rules on dividend taxes, which the romney campaign says it will not do. our verdict here is false. according to the tax policy center, they say, again, it can't be done. next, the situation in libya. this is getting a lot of attention. vice president made the claim that the station did not know there were requests for more security in benghazi. >> we weren't told they wanteded more security and we did not

know they wanted more security. >> dealing with the attacks on the embassy. what are the facts? just this week two former officials stationed there said they had, in fact, asked for more security. this happened at the house hearing on wednesday. our verdict here is this. it's unclear how high the request for more security got in the administration but officials did testify the state department was asked. so either joe biden didn't know this or he was wrong. i'll move on to health care right now. paul ryan said obamacare will cause 20 million people to lose their insurance. >> look at all the string of broken promises. if you like your health care plan, you can keep it. try telling that to the 20 million people who are projected to lose their health insurance if obamacare goes through. >> what are the facts here? an analysis in march from the congressional budget office mentioned an outside possibility of 20 million people losing coverage due to the law, part of a range of possibilities they and explored that also included the possibility that 3 million people would actually gain coverage.

the actual conclusion of the study was a sharp dloin in employment-based health insurance as a result of the affordable health care act. they say that conclusion is unlikely. our verdict here is false. paul ryan, it so manies, soledad, was out on a limb there. >> and i think you can see, certainly by the interviews we've done there, john, people will be talking about afghanistan and whether or not paul ryan was talking about increasing american troops there. and then something we heard a lot as well is the -- you know, was joe biden a bully in the debate? did that have an impact or was that, as some of the democrats were saying this morning, if anybody is going to complain about smiling, that's an indication they lost the debate, if you will. >> i don't know how you fact check smiling. it is true that joe biden certainly smiled a lot and it is true he has very white teeth. while i have christine here, one thing that the romney team and republicans have been pointing out is that the center study doesn't take into account growth. that would make their tax plan

neutral. >> you heard that from senator johnson, right? >> they just don't have a lot of details. they don't have enough details to make the assessment. that's a big problem here and paul ryan wasn't giving details last night. that's part of the problem. they also say, one author with a certain amount of growth it still doesn't pay for themselves. >> what kind of deductions, what income level and what the campaign has said is that we want to work with congress to work out those details which makes it so difficult to close that 4$4.8 trillion gap. if they downgraded the size of the tax cut and had really good growth maybe you could get there but you would have to make some changes to the plan. >> i think republicans are getting, when we talked to senator johnson, pushback on that. you can't just bring it all to congress and say we don't actually -- we haven't flushed out a plan. we'll let congress figure it out. that will be a challenge for republicans on that front. thank you, guys.

appreciate it. still ahead on "starting point" they're break down the set behind us. my lights keep going away. they've been taking out the lights, too. we've got lots to talk about this morning. numbers are climbing in that meningitis outbreak. first lawsuit has been filed. no big surprise there, i think. we'll have details of that lawsuit coming up next. home heating costs are expected to go up this winter. what you need to know before that happens. "starting point" is back in a moment. i tried weight loss . but their shakes aren't always made for people with diabetes. that's why there's glucerna hunger smart shakes. they have carb steady, with carbs that digest slowly to help minimize blood sugar spikes. and they have six grams of sugars. with fifteen grams of protein to help manage hunger... look who's getting smart about her weight. [ male announcer ] glucerna hunger smart. a smart way to help manage hunger and diabetes.

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welcome back, everyone. a minnesota woman who says she was injected with a tainted steroid injection is now seeing necc, the company at the center of the fungal meningitis outbre outbreak, nationwide death toll stands at 14. 170 people who received epidural steroid injections are infected and the cdc now is saying 13,000 people may have received tainted injections. critics of lance armstrong are crossing out the "v" on his live strong bracelets saying the slogan should be lie strong. tonight armstrong's former teammate tyler hamilton will be a guest on anderson 360, who just wrote a book accusing armstrong of doping. that should be an interesting interview. christine romans is watching

the stocks. >> record third-quarter profit, and jp morgan jamie dimon said we believe the housing market has turned the corner. wow! also seeing strong earnings from wells fargo. mortgage rates ticked up slightly. 3.39% for 30-year fixed rate and 15-year rate 2.7%. working on getting the details for that for you. home heating bill will go up this year, according to the energy information administration. mostly because of the cold winter that's expected. not because of rising fuel prices, because it's going to be cold. homes using home heating oil in the northeast will see their costs rise $2,500, up 20% from last year. if you use natural gas to heat your home, heating costs will up

to 15%, 13% for propane and 6% for electricity. >> that's a bumer. >> sorry. >> that's okay. you can hear behind me and we can show you a picture of the set being collapsed. this morning they've got in early, started ripping out the chairs and all the equipment behind the far wall and they're taking down, of course, the set from last night. so that's what's accounting for all the noise over my shoulder, and the fact that we've lost the lights behind us. going to keep talking, though, about what happened last night. you heard some of the democratic reaction to the vice presidential debate. red state.com editor in chief erick acreson will join us. this story we're following up on, 14-year-old girl has become a lightning rod for women's rights. protesters who support and thoen those who even oppose a pakistani girl shot by the

taliban. of ♪

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while investing billions improving everything from booking to baggage claim. we're raising the bar on flying and tomorrow we will up it yet again. welcome back. you're watching "starting point." we're coming to you live from danville, kentucky. we're inside the very hall where joe biden and paul ryan got into it last night. several serious and sometimes heated exchanges. they clashed repeatedly. here is a little taste of it. >> with all due respect that's a bunch of mularkey.

>> why is that so? >> not a single thing he said is accurate. this is a bunch of stuff. look, here is the deal -- >> what does that mean a bunch of stuff? >> it's irish. >> it means it's simply inaccurate. it is. we irish call it mularkey. >> thanks for the translation. >> i think the vice president very well knows that sometimes the words don't come out of your mouth the right way. >> but i always say what i mean. >> mr. vice president, i know -- mr. vice president, i know you're under a lot of duress to make up lost ground, but i think people would be better served if we don't keep interrupting each other. >> well, don't take all the four minutes then. >> it's been done before. it's precisely what we're proposing. >> it's never been done before. >> it's been done a couple of times. jack kennedy increased -- >> now you're jack kennedy? >> some of those punches landed on both sides last night. this is what's happening over my

shoulder. construction workers are taking apart what was martha raditz's desk. they're taking down the lights, et cetera, as they break down and start clean iing up what wa done here last night. cnn snap poll of debate watchers taken right after the dough bait shows that paul ryan won, ahead of four points. if you look at the margin of error, which is plus or minus five points, that poll is right within the margin of error. so, basically, it was a tie. want to get right to cnn contributor erick erickson, editor in chief of redstate.com. nice to see you, erick. >> thank you. >> you heard some of the back and forth last night, some of the highlights, i would guess. both sides have proclaimed that their guy won. you heard it in the spin room. i've seen it on twitter. people coming to talk to me this morning, their person had the decisive victory. ultimately you're going after people who are undecided, that tiny number of undecided in the middle. who do you think was appealed to

the most by last night's debate? >> i don't think vice presidential races have ever really had an impact. i don't think this one did last night. i don't know that undecided voters stuck around for the entire debate. frank frankly, the joe biden schtick got tiring halfway through the grinning and interrupting and undecided voters would be a little frustrated by that. lo look, i think paul ryan won. if you put a democrat on, i think they would say joe biden won. so, there you have it. it was a draw. i do think, though, if we go back to the presidential debate of 2000, al gore was perceived initially to have had a draw in that debate but it was his behaviors, sighing and interrupting that over the next couple of days was parodied so effectively on ""saturday night live"" and elsewhere that it became viewed of him losing the debate. joe biden may run into that problem this week. frankly, his behavior, mary could have ridden him to bethlehem. >> i have to say, people who

said they thought it was disrespectful, i didn't see disrespect in that. i do think, though, that you might be right about the parodying. one thing that his son, beau biden, said to me, clearly it's a democratic talking point. and republicans on the other side as well. said listen if everybody who is a republican is talking about the smiling, that is an indication he had a very strong debate. if the big take away is that he smiled a lot, that's not so bad. >> no. no, you know what? they're going to say that. i realize it. but joe biden's mannisms are -- if you listen to the panels, our panels on other networks last night, there were a lot of -- particularly among female undecided voters about joe biden's behavior last night. republicans want to reiterate that not because they want to distract from paul ryan's performance but because they want to highlight what joe biden did last night. a lot of people did view it as

disrespectful. i think it was joe biden being joe biden. he didn't swallow his foot but the line people are going to take away from this is that he really contradicted so far what we learned on libya, saying it was the intelligence community, but then said we could trust those same people on in. seemed to be a big disconnect to me. >> a big disconnect for others, on the other side of the aisle from you would be about paul ryan and taxes and trying to get some specifics about that. this is a conversation that's been going on for a long time, trying to pin him down to exactly what the tax plan would be. i'm going to run a little chunk for you on that. >> what we're saying is deny those loopholes and deductions to higher income tax payers so that more of their income is taxed, which has a broader base of taxation. >> may i translate? >> so we can lower tax rates across the board. here is why i'm saying that. >> i hope i'm getting time to respond to this. >> you'll get time. >> we want to work with congress on how best to achieve this. that means successful. >> no specifics again. >> lower tax rates 20%, start with the wealthy.

work with congress to do it. >> you guarantee this math will add up? >> absolutely. >> i absolutely guarantee the math will add up. i don't have any specifics that i can give you. that's because it's going to be about growth. i think that's going to be a challenge for them. don't you think? >> you know, honestly, at this point i don't know that it is. i did think it was interesting in how much martha pressured paul ryan on specific policies and specificness of his proposals and didn't do that so much with swroe biden. it's striking that for all the lack of specifics she may be getting from the romney campaign, you're not getting them any more from the obama campaign for what they're going to do for the next four years. >> you know, you tweeted that about martha. you tweeted this. i'm sorry, but i think martha did an atrocio job as a moderator, lost control of both sides repeatedly. >> i absolutely think she did. >> i think you've lost your mind. >> i think you're a journalists and journalists are going to give her cover.

i thought she was horrible. >> i've never met her before today. she walked by. i said hi. in terms o information -- >> look, you've got to -- >> let me just finish and i'll let you respond. hang on a second. >> with joe biden and paul ryan -- >> right. for me a moderator who let's them go at it each other a little bit so you can get the argument but then jumps in and moves it to the right direction that's very helpful as someone who was just watching. i got to watch it in the hall. why do you disagree? >> because i think she only interrupted to move the debate forward when paul ryan was speaking. she rarely did it with joe biden. she let joe biden do the interruption. two-thirds of the debate to foreign policy. and, you know, when you're debating foreign policy in a vice presidential debate, i guess that's all well and good but we have this unemployment number, jobs decline and i just think moderators shouldn't make the focus of the debate their wheelhouse. >> i'm going to disagree with

you on that. i thought she did a terrific job, thought she was super strong. did you think jim lehrer did a good job? we can disagree. >> at least -- i think with jim leh lehrer, he got out of the way and let them talk. when joe biden was so aggressive last night you needed the moderator to intervene a little more. jim lehrer, i thought he was asleep for most of the debate but wound up being substantive. i haven't been impressed with the moderators so far this year but candy crowley will hit it out of the park, guarantee. >> good news is that if you missed any of the debate last night, you can watch itgain today. we'll rerun it today at noon eastern time on cnn. other stories making news, john has that for us. >> thank you, soledad. i'm plus one with you on martha raddatz. claiming responsibility for launching a drone into israel last week. it was shot down by the israeli

air force. hezbollah claims the iranian-made drone flew oversensitive sites in israel. america is becoming increasingly vulnerable toy crippling cyber attack, says foreign hackers have the ability to dismantle the nation's power grid, financial system, transportation system and even the federal government. >> these kind of attacks could be a cyber pearl harbor. an attack that would cause physical disruption and the loss of life. an attack that would paralyze and shock the nation. >> alarming words. panetta is pushing for new legislation that would require tougher cyber protection standards for power plants and

rail lines. jessica ridgeway vanished one week ago on her way to school in colorado. jessica's backpack was found not far from her home. and a body was found in the area on wednesday. police have not yet made an identification. up close and personal, you are looking live at the shuttle "endeavour" on the ground in los angeles. it's making its way through the streets of l.a. on its way to the science center. a lot of people get iting a loo at the massive ship, moving along at a massive 2 miles per hour. 46 hours ending tomorrow night. people in l.a. are used to strange things so maybe a space shuttle driving down the street isn't so weird after all, soledad. >> that's amazing. great, great shot. thank you for the update. still ahead on "starting point" gaining international support. also gaining some enemies, too,

over her fight for women's rights. we'll bring you the very latest on this kruyoung lady, pakistan girl shot by the taliban. natures are made with real ingredients you can see. like whole roasted nuts, chewy granola, and real fruit. nature valley trail mix bars. 100% natural. 100% delicious. 100% natural. have led to an increase intands clinical depression. drug and alcohol abuse is up. and those dealing with grief don't have access to the professional help they need. when you see these issues, do you want to walk away or step up? with a degree in the field of counseling or psychology from capella university, you'll have the knowledge to make a difference in the lives of others.

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welcome back, everybody. i'm reporting to you live this morning from the site of the vice presidential debate last night. you can hear the noise as they break down the stage. they've pulled up the table and are ripping everything out to get this center back to normal. lots of other stories to tell you about this morning, including one we told you about yesterday. new developments in that story that is gripping pakistan and the rest of the world, frankly, as well. the targeted shooting of a fearless 14-year-old girl. her name is malala yousafzai.

three men are now in custody. they've identified a man linked to the attack. more rallies held for that young anti-taliban activist. reza sayah is following the story for us and has more this morning. >> reporter: still critical is her condition. much of pakistan and much of the world waiting to see if she recovers. two days ago, doctors successfully removed a bullet that first hit her in the had head and then ended up in her lower neck. thursday, malala was transferred from a hospital in northwest pakistan to a leading military hospital in the garrison city of rawalpindi in islamabad. doctors are keeping a close eye on swelling of her brain, always a big concern after brain surgery. of course, the brain is housed in a bone. unlike other parts of the body, the swelling has simply nowhere else to go. that's why doctors say it's

crucial to keep the swelling under control. they say the next one or two days will be critical in her recovery. in the meantime, the government of pakistan, under pressure to find the shooters who attacked malala. we're get iting a lot of conflicting accounts from top government officials, interior minister said thursday that they have identified the two gunmen and they will be arrested soon. the foreign minister telling cnn that 100 people have been detained for questioning, but on friday a police chief in the region saying that most of those detainees have been released. 35 are still in custody. but there's no hard evidence who attacked malala. also on friday, the outpouring of support and emotion continued for malala, number of political parties and mosques planning on rallies for 14-year-old human rights activist, who has captured a lot of hearts and now is fighting for her life. reza sayah, cnn, islamabad.

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welcome back, everybody. coming to you live from danville, kentucky, where they are now breaking down the stage from last night. this morning, and actually every week, we shine a spotlight on the top ten cnn heroes of 2012. you'll be voting for the one who inspires you the most. you can go to cnnheroes.com to do that. challenging teenagers to help him end the culture of underage drinking. take a look. >> october 27th, 2007 was a beautiful autumn day.

mariah was with her two friends. i didn't know the last time i kissed her would be the last time. later that night they were wug down this path when an underage drunk driver swerved off the road and hit them. mariah landed he. she died that night. they were only a block away from my house. mariah was only 14. and i'm thinking, how did this happen? it is so preventable. my name is leo mccarthy. i give kids tools to stay away from drinking. our state has been touristly top five drinking and driving fatalities in the country. it's a cyclical disease we allow to continue. >> mariah's challenges the first generation of you kids not to drink. >> if you stick with me for four years, don't use alcohol, don't use elicit drugs, i'll be there

and a bunch of other people to go to a secondary school. >> i promise not to drink until i'm 21. >> i promise not to get into a car with someoneho has been drinking. >> i promise to give back to my community. >> mariah's challenge is something that makes people think a little bit more to say we can be better. mariah is forever 14. i can't get her back. i can help other parents keep their kids safe. if we save one child, we save a generation. i have a cold, and i took nyquil, but i'm still stubbed up.

[ male announcer ] truth is, nyquil doesn't unstuff your nose. what? [ male announcer ] alka-seltzer plus liquid gels speeds relief to your worst cold symptoms plus has a decongestant for your stuffy nose. thanks. that's the cold truth! anne's tablet called my phone. anne's tablet was chatting with a tablet in sydney... a desktop in zurich... and a telepresence room in brazil. the secure cloud helped us get some numbers from my assistant's pc in new york. and before i reached the top, the board meeting became a congrats we sold the company party. wait til my wife's phone hears about this. [ cellphone vibrating ] [ female announcer ] with cisco at the center, working together has never worked so well.

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